Although I haven't thought as deeply and as carefully about pop music as Celia has for some time now I've had the intuition that pop music in the West became a form of toxicity to young people with the advent of electrically enhanced music.
To me there's something mind and soul numbing about virtually all pop and rock music. And please don't misunderstand me, I listened to way too much of it as a youth. And look how I ended up. Like the caricature in the Beatles' "Nowhere Man."
I took a class in college called something like "Western classical music appreciation" or something like that. It changed the way I looked at music, for the better.
The West has brought a lot of harm to the world but the West's classical music legacy is one of the greatest things mankind has devised. Ironically then that pop music and rock is among the worst, the later being both mind numbing and soul killing.
Thomas, I feel I am still working my way through it. This morning, Never Mind The Bollocks by the Sex Pistols sounded (once more) like a minor masterpiece. I thought I was "done" with it all, was trying to overcome the as you say "toxic" effects of rock, pop, punk, post punk…but I feel that this NEW juggernaut, this King Kong, this "Taylor Swift" thing, has driven me back into the arms of the Clash…ha ha slight joke, but also serious. In 2024 it's straight up Monarch/Cult/Mind Control on such a scale that I am suddenly willing to forgive and even love ALL rock pop and punk that came before. Even Led Zeppelin!
That said, I wish to learn more and more and more about classical music. I mean, listen to more and more. To make myself sane and whole, after so much trauma.
great article, i imagine the whole band took the subway for a dollar or less .
i used to listen to a lot of jazz overnite on wkcr-fm from columbia u in nyc , and tune it out when they switched to the classical show at nine am weekdays til one morning i was too lazy to change the station, that started a new musical appreciation, i guessi was finally ready, and this was much as i got into jazz after not switching the dial from the americana that kcr played sunday mornings from ten am til two, and opera on saturday nights which followed the blues and jazz afternoon/early evening slots , and a shout out to the late great jazz dj from wkcr phil schaapp rip
Western pop music in the 20th century is so rich and diverse, it seems excessive to lump it all into some malevolent narrative. Are you guys telling me these (and there are hundreds more where these came from) are malevolently subversive?
Here's my playlist I call the "You Guys May Be Delusional Playlist":
Fourteen year old me also played covers of “Guns of Brixton” and “London Calling” many times in same aforementioned cover band, with my $50 bass guitar. As it should be.
I respectfully submit the following opinion with this caveat: my husband has turned me into a music snob. Music has also been a huge part of my life--I had a job running truss follow spots for rock concerts for three years, ran follow spots for opera, worked as a bartender at the Metropolitan Opera, worked at a record store for six years--and I have seen hundreds of shows, known quite a few musicians etc and yet, when I met my husband his music experience entirely quashed mine. And I learned that I had missed this huge swath of truly remarkable music--everything from Radio Birdman to the Lyres, to the Anti Nowhere League to the Wipers, Motorhead, 13th Floor Elevators and Roky Erickson to Warsaw (first iteration of Joy Division) not to mention his deep love of old country and bluegrass, rockabilly. And all this has in my mind entirely diminished the Clash who I now see as commercial, despite all the tags to the contrary that you list. But my point is that I have named some of the more well known people he listens to, but he also has thousands of 45s of musicians almost no one has ever heard of or has long forgotten and once you find yourself immersed in non commercial music it forever changes the way you relate to the music you once loved. When I was 18 my favorite band were U2 and R.E.M. and I am embarrassed to admit it. I began despising them during the early 90s and have never looked back. I guess I realized I had been conned. Music was definitely co-opted in a way that has not been either fully or correctly explored. A lot of people point to Dave MacGowan's book but he gets a lot of things wrong as well. But it is definitely an element and may be nearly as difficult to dissect as finding honest news. But when I consider the Pogues and contrast them to U2, that speaks volumes.
Well, I lent my book to a friend, so I have to go with basic impressions rather than specifics. Basically he tries too hard to fit the entire scene to his theory. There are instances where he claims certain musicians couldn't play when clearly they could and he downplays some of their actual talent in order to drive some of his points home. Were the bands created by the CIA, (in many instances I find that hard to believe and again, there are some truly talented musicians McGowan completely writes off) or, instead did the CIA operate as handlers, as pushers, as producers and agents, and music label guys? I find that more likely, as that is how the CIA tends to maneuver. I clearly do think something weird was going on at the Canyon though--and if we weave some of McGowan's theories in with what was going on with Manson, as discussed by Tom O'Neill in his book Chaos, and, in my opinion, some of the strangeness surrounding Polanski/Rosemary's Baby then a more complete picture emerges.
Aaahhh , I see your point. I read it so long ago. & bad memory here. He was groundbreaking & who knows what he’d say if he was still with us.
I still can’t explain my experiences going to Grateful Dead concerts in the 80’s and 90’s. I thought I was being rebellious, & was all that a big experiment ? Looking back, yes. It was.
I hoped the hippies wanted peace and harmony but they were mostly just hedonistic! Myself included, I guess,& searching for insight through the drugs.
Yeah, and LSD was a big part of the CIA plan--and I must say I deeply distrust the Grateful Dead, and always have. Well, we've been lied to all our lives--and by good con men too.
Yeah, it's funny. Lots of bands I once listened to, thought I'd always love, I no longer care for. Some bands, I think, just have a shelf life, while others (like U2) become ever more contemptible. But the good news is that there is a ton of stuff out there to listen to just waiting for your discovery....
I saw Frank Zappa at the (giant quonset hut) Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin in 1978 for $5, and another $5 for my pitcher of Shiner beer. I had a little table for one by the stage, and Frank played my request. I was working my way through college, working 32 hours a week.
haha my comment on the Bono post might have been more apropos here. yes yes yes. Continuing with the theme, becoming a part of the SF then NYC improv/music scene 2005-2015 (and for others before that) was very similar to the early punk ethos and that was the best part of it as well. now they teach it in university and, well, a lot of it sucks. the stuff that is still DIY - and it is out there - has that spirit, but the COVID blackout did some real damage.
Although I haven't thought as deeply and as carefully about pop music as Celia has for some time now I've had the intuition that pop music in the West became a form of toxicity to young people with the advent of electrically enhanced music.
To me there's something mind and soul numbing about virtually all pop and rock music. And please don't misunderstand me, I listened to way too much of it as a youth. And look how I ended up. Like the caricature in the Beatles' "Nowhere Man."
I took a class in college called something like "Western classical music appreciation" or something like that. It changed the way I looked at music, for the better.
The West has brought a lot of harm to the world but the West's classical music legacy is one of the greatest things mankind has devised. Ironically then that pop music and rock is among the worst, the later being both mind numbing and soul killing.
Thomas, I feel I am still working my way through it. This morning, Never Mind The Bollocks by the Sex Pistols sounded (once more) like a minor masterpiece. I thought I was "done" with it all, was trying to overcome the as you say "toxic" effects of rock, pop, punk, post punk…but I feel that this NEW juggernaut, this King Kong, this "Taylor Swift" thing, has driven me back into the arms of the Clash…ha ha slight joke, but also serious. In 2024 it's straight up Monarch/Cult/Mind Control on such a scale that I am suddenly willing to forgive and even love ALL rock pop and punk that came before. Even Led Zeppelin!
That said, I wish to learn more and more and more about classical music. I mean, listen to more and more. To make myself sane and whole, after so much trauma.
I am listening to Beethoven lately.
great article, i imagine the whole band took the subway for a dollar or less .
i used to listen to a lot of jazz overnite on wkcr-fm from columbia u in nyc , and tune it out when they switched to the classical show at nine am weekdays til one morning i was too lazy to change the station, that started a new musical appreciation, i guessi was finally ready, and this was much as i got into jazz after not switching the dial from the americana that kcr played sunday mornings from ten am til two, and opera on saturday nights which followed the blues and jazz afternoon/early evening slots , and a shout out to the late great jazz dj from wkcr phil schaapp rip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T121UTtXZ-g
Or, if you prefer...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gfIgA-PYyQ
Western pop music in the 20th century is so rich and diverse, it seems excessive to lump it all into some malevolent narrative. Are you guys telling me these (and there are hundreds more where these came from) are malevolently subversive?
Here's my playlist I call the "You Guys May Be Delusional Playlist":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWQS5fWxxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAb2Mu0CRk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYVHZN0_EDQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0X01NVSAws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b69NH9B-RP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3svS8Nk6-Jk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBq2StnOFAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVX80UpMPDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyRbhTUc6aI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=982_dWnwsIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciLNMesqPh0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGlY3ubGzUY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRzOfYyIIO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1QjyskJ9jw
Fourteen year old me also played covers of “Guns of Brixton” and “London Calling” many times in same aforementioned cover band, with my $50 bass guitar. As it should be.
I respectfully submit the following opinion with this caveat: my husband has turned me into a music snob. Music has also been a huge part of my life--I had a job running truss follow spots for rock concerts for three years, ran follow spots for opera, worked as a bartender at the Metropolitan Opera, worked at a record store for six years--and I have seen hundreds of shows, known quite a few musicians etc and yet, when I met my husband his music experience entirely quashed mine. And I learned that I had missed this huge swath of truly remarkable music--everything from Radio Birdman to the Lyres, to the Anti Nowhere League to the Wipers, Motorhead, 13th Floor Elevators and Roky Erickson to Warsaw (first iteration of Joy Division) not to mention his deep love of old country and bluegrass, rockabilly. And all this has in my mind entirely diminished the Clash who I now see as commercial, despite all the tags to the contrary that you list. But my point is that I have named some of the more well known people he listens to, but he also has thousands of 45s of musicians almost no one has ever heard of or has long forgotten and once you find yourself immersed in non commercial music it forever changes the way you relate to the music you once loved. When I was 18 my favorite band were U2 and R.E.M. and I am embarrassed to admit it. I began despising them during the early 90s and have never looked back. I guess I realized I had been conned. Music was definitely co-opted in a way that has not been either fully or correctly explored. A lot of people point to Dave MacGowan's book but he gets a lot of things wrong as well. But it is definitely an element and may be nearly as difficult to dissect as finding honest news. But when I consider the Pogues and contrast them to U2, that speaks volumes.
What did Dave get wrong?
Well, I lent my book to a friend, so I have to go with basic impressions rather than specifics. Basically he tries too hard to fit the entire scene to his theory. There are instances where he claims certain musicians couldn't play when clearly they could and he downplays some of their actual talent in order to drive some of his points home. Were the bands created by the CIA, (in many instances I find that hard to believe and again, there are some truly talented musicians McGowan completely writes off) or, instead did the CIA operate as handlers, as pushers, as producers and agents, and music label guys? I find that more likely, as that is how the CIA tends to maneuver. I clearly do think something weird was going on at the Canyon though--and if we weave some of McGowan's theories in with what was going on with Manson, as discussed by Tom O'Neill in his book Chaos, and, in my opinion, some of the strangeness surrounding Polanski/Rosemary's Baby then a more complete picture emerges.
Aaahhh , I see your point. I read it so long ago. & bad memory here. He was groundbreaking & who knows what he’d say if he was still with us.
I still can’t explain my experiences going to Grateful Dead concerts in the 80’s and 90’s. I thought I was being rebellious, & was all that a big experiment ? Looking back, yes. It was.
I hoped the hippies wanted peace and harmony but they were mostly just hedonistic! Myself included, I guess,& searching for insight through the drugs.
Yeah, and LSD was a big part of the CIA plan--and I must say I deeply distrust the Grateful Dead, and always have. Well, we've been lied to all our lives--and by good con men too.
I fell for it. Thought I’d be listening to their music in old age. The program broke & it does nothing for me now.
Yeah, it's funny. Lots of bands I once listened to, thought I'd always love, I no longer care for. Some bands, I think, just have a shelf life, while others (like U2) become ever more contemptible. But the good news is that there is a ton of stuff out there to listen to just waiting for your discovery....
"Rum, Sodomy and the Lash" gave me a macabre laugh;
"Hell's Ditch" made me cry.
Waltzing Mathilda makes me cry every single time.
Well, it made me cry back in 1990 when it came out.
Now - not so much.
I was born by that river... (not in a little tent)...
I saw Frank Zappa at the (giant quonset hut) Armadillo World Headquarters in Austin in 1978 for $5, and another $5 for my pitcher of Shiner beer. I had a little table for one by the stage, and Frank played my request. I was working my way through college, working 32 hours a week.
Them wuz the days.
Sweet
haha my comment on the Bono post might have been more apropos here. yes yes yes. Continuing with the theme, becoming a part of the SF then NYC improv/music scene 2005-2015 (and for others before that) was very similar to the early punk ethos and that was the best part of it as well. now they teach it in university and, well, a lot of it sucks. the stuff that is still DIY - and it is out there - has that spirit, but the COVID blackout did some real damage.
the winds of fear
whip away the sickness
the message on the tablets
was valium
- joe strummer
I guess you have seen Julien Temple's excellent portrait of Joe Strummer but, in case not, here is a link
https://youtu.be/JgfEGDwUtYA?si=wOFJk2LKjL60ZdHX
I don’t remember what little college town it was in, Hudson valley? Jorma played for 6 hours and we were in overstuffed couches on the lawn.
In the late 80’s.
Too many Grateful Dead concerts affected my long term memory (& I was still drinking recklessly )
I wrote a Beckettish story:
https://substack.com/profile/25949243-hesperado/note/c-50275847
somewhat flummoxed by this fan boy namedropping Sam Beckett in a breathless tribute to insider rock shows.
John Lydon, (Sex Pistols) 1977:
'Holiday in the Sun'
"CHEAP HOLIDAY IN OTHER PEOPLE'S MISERY!"
This changed my sensitivity in music forever. That one line above revealed to me why I just could not fly to Mexico and shirk moral responsibilities.
Guns of Brixton
https://youtu.be/JcW8VNwYvL0?si=xgCkkZdZebwXAHFD
"Safe European Home"
Illuminating what blowback will happen in the face of colonial oppression.