Errr - I'm an ethical vegan (and have been for many years). I am certainly not young! I was once a veterinarian, then an epidemiologist, then a scientific editor specializing in medical texts, so I know quite a lot about physiology (many species), medicine, nutrition and animal welfare (and indeed the WHO...). I have indeed worked in slaughterhouses, and on livestock farms, but that was before I became vegan. Please don't make generalizations.
I think Chuck was describing his experience, not so much generalizing.
As an ethical vegan, I'd love to get your feedback on this situation I am just now aware of—the mass mass death to animals and the environment, from agricultural food production. I don't "have answers" but it seems to me it is no longer possible to be an "ethical vegan."
It is certainly difficult to be a true ethical vegan, but I use the term to distinguish people who are concerned about the welfare of our fellow beings from those who become vegan because of fashion or fad, or for their own health (or because they have been told it will "save the planet"). However, I don't think the difficulty involved is not a reason to do as little harm as possible, both directly and indirectly. If I could do no harm to any individual of any species (including plants) I would gladly do so (can you tell me how to become breatharian...?), but think how many tiny creatures we kill every time we step on the ground! Of course there is always collateral damage in food production (indeed in anything we do!), but I grow my food according to veganic principles, and buy the same where possible (as you say, it's rarely possible, but I don't think that's a reason just to throw in the towel and eat meat and dairy again). There are degrees of harm and degrees of suffering, and most livestock farming practices and the methods of slaughter involved are truly horrendous (believe me, I've been involved in them). The amount of collateral damage in agriculture/horticulture varies with the methods used - of course, industrial petrochemical agriculture does more harm than organic, which does more harm than veganic. As far as I am concerned, we are placed in a world/matrix that is based on evil - that I believe is satanically designed to be so - and I believe that the less we can perpetuate that evil, while placed under the constraints of a physical body that, sadly, has to eat something, the better the future world will be. Just my opinion. Thanks for replying to me.
Your world view - that we are placed in a world/matrix based on evil - is truly sad. No wonder you take your stance on “ethical” veganism. I hope your viewpoint is in the minority because it is a hopeless one. The cycle of life and death of all plants and animals on this planet is both tragic and beautiful. The predators and prey in the animal kingdom are no less heartless than those of us who are omnivores. Human consciousness allows us to be thankful for our food, to make choices regarding what we eat and where we get it. Your take in insect life surprises me; usually insect and other smaller life forms are ignored, so thank you for that. Good luck on becoming a breathitarian.
My wife is a DAOM as well. She has taught me a lot about proper eating with respect to TCM. One thing that took me a long time to understand is that we also do need collagen. She often makes bone broth but we both take collagen supplements. I'm still struggling with blood pressure even though I'm taking formulas like Hyper Quell and I have some GB issues for which I have some other herb formulas. But I'm happy to be free from big pharma and healthy enough here at 59 years.
Your 'Xingyi' handle piqued my interest. Are you a Xingyi practitioner?
I've been a longtime practitioner of the arts, mainly Xingyi and Yiquan, though some others too (Bagua). Those two are my favorites. I wish I could find competent teachers for Xinyi, the precursor art for Xingyi, but I'm afraid its likely only in mainland China, from what I understand. At any rate, exciting to see another internal arts practitioner.
Collagen is important; connective tissue carries a lot of importance the more I come to grasp it. The structural integrity it provides (based a lot in collagen) is key to sound energies within the meridians of the body. I've learned quite a lot of my years of practice about scar therapy, and have witnessed huge changes in peoples physiology by simply treating surgery scars etc. I agree with the importance of good homemade bone broths in that regard. Another good tip for keeping collagen boosted is Vitamin C. Vitamin C provides the precursors for collagen in the body. I use both sodium ascorbate and liposomal forms, roughly 12,000mg - 15,000mg per day. There's so many good benefits to Vitamin C - huge cardiovascular benefits, the oxidative benefits, collagen (also a part of the cardiovascular aspect - repairing blood vessels), and several other things as well.
If you are interested in top notch information regarding Vitamin C, you might consider looking up all presentations by Dr. Suzanne Humphries amd Dr. Thomas Levy. You might find them on Odysee/Bitchute/Rumble. They are the one's in the modern era carrying forth all the excellent research from the likes of Linus Pauling, Dr. Klenner et al from many years past. Vitamin C is one of the best guarded secrets in medicine, in my opinion.
I'll post some of those links here for those interested:
Hi Chuck, yeah, I've been practicing Xingyi, some baguazhang, and taiji for many years now. I was originally instructed by Mike Patterson (https://www.hsing-i.com/shrfu-bio) many years ago. Mike was taught by grandmaster Hsu Hung Chi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsu_Hung-chi) in Taiwan. But nowadays, I don't train that much and am a member of the North American Tang Shao Tao (https://www.natsta.org/) organization and occasionally train up in Washington DC with their instructors.
That's good information on Vitamin C. I'm certain that I don't take enough. Thanks!
I'm familiar with Mike, he knows his craft. That's great to see. I was a member of NATSTA back in the 90's, how funny. A small world the internal arts community.
More aptly, he should have said I haven't met many colleagues that know anything about communism or even nutrition because doctors of medicine are not educated in that fashion. Look up veganism and notice that most studies site could help from a vegan or vegetarian diet. Perhaps the doctor works for the meat and or dairy industry or he is and he doesn't realize it.
Correct, doctors are not taught about nutrition in medical school. Even Chinese medical school goes only so far. When you are taking 9 classes per quarter, there's an incredible amount of information to assimilate. So for doctors (of any type) who do come to knowledge on nutrition, it is certainly because they sought out that education on their own. In my case, I am an autodidact; learning is my jam. I'm a lifelong learner. That being said, it took me about five individual pushes (over many years) to really get to where I felt like I had good working knowledge on nutrition. So it is hard fought knowledge as there is so much information out there. But some things are simply true -for example, vegetables are simply not broken down well by the human GI tract. This is true for all humans, regardless of blood type or whatever spin we want to place on dietary styles. Plants are made of ceullulose, and that material is not well managed by humans. Thus we have ruminant animals.
as per your accusation or suspicion that I could be some agent of the dairy industry or meat industry - I have on words. Yes, I am here to sway the 30 or so people who will even see this thread and comment. That is how I spend my time and energy here on Earth. You got me!
Depending on one's criteria, unless one has relocated in the Arctic Circle (not using any transportation to get there other than hiking) and built a cabin from tools made in the forest (no hardware stores) and eat from the land up there (killing animals? fishing? eating nuts & berries?), it's no longer possible to be ethical period.
I was attempting to share my clinical experience, based on many years of seeing many vegans. Veganism seems to appeal to mostly women, and as a clinician you treat primarily women (say 90%) And in a very liberal city I encountered many of them. Furthermore, if I walk the halls of one of the most 'pretigious' naturpoathic medical schools in North America, the main nutrition paradigm being sold right now, is "plant-based future".
Of course my commentary does not pertain to a veterinarian who would have studied physiology; nor could it aptly describe all people. That is an impossible task which I am not claiming to do.
Perhaps you're familiar with the adage - "How do you start a fight on the internet?"
Step 1: Say something
Step 2: Wait (for comments)
I'm well aware of veterinarian training (I know Vets and many farriers in my area, and have worked as a farrier myself) and that some consider it to be tougher than M.D. training given they must apply themselves to multiples animate beings. Give credit where credit is due. My comments were clearly regarding those who had not sought out information before subscribing with zeal to a method of nourishing themselves.
If vegans truly want to have a revolution worldwide, here's how. Tackle the insanity of vaccination as it relates to animals. They so wish to protect the animals, yes? The spillover effect from the mass awakening of the cruelty being done to small and large animals alike would be a masterful stroke. Would it then possibly lend itself to humans wondering what it has and is doing to them? I see countless horses who are harmed all the time by vaccines; they must be one of the most vaccinated populations of large animals, as they are typically a high ticket luxury item for many.
If you sense an edge of displeasure to some of my experience, I'm fine with that. I own every bit of it. It was much to my own chagrin that I had to learn all of this firsthand, not enjoyable. It is very trying to watch people harm themselves (because they FEEL they represent an apex healthy lifestyle), though that is what free will can look like. What is truly sad about veganism, in my opinion, is not just the damage it does to the Earth, or to the vegans themselves, the endless virtue signalling that convinces others it is sound, but to the children of vegans who have no say in being born to a woman with such deficiencies. It is no joke, and if we want to broach a truly holistic conversation on this topic, something we might consider.
Mind control is a very slick and insidious machine. A dynamic that if explored with real tenacity can lead to incredible growth and knowledge. It is also a lonely path doing that work, and often involves a great deal of shame and derisiveness should one dare to speak out. You cannot imagine how many I have watched suffer for not understanding what they engage with - whether that is false dietary paradigms, other lies within medicine, vaccines etc. May an abundance of health be realized and spread wide for those who do the tough work of seeking it. A tough realm to hone discernment in, to be sure.
That's Ok Celia. I've managed to build up thick skin after decades of being a 'seer'; it comes with the territory. And I don't see it as absurd in the end.
I find that honing discernment is synonymous with spirituality. It is one and the same. Since we find ourselves here in this realm where everything is inverted and propaganda and mind control reign, it takes real guts and determination to press on. Given that we are in a spiritual war, where we go beyond this life will rest greatly upon the discernment we are able to develop while here. there are a great many tricks to this realm.
Since you have been touching upon mind control more lately (which I personally see as extremely important to do), start an article or thread on the shared roots of entities like the United Nations and the New Age movement, and watch the fireworks fly on that one too. That will really rustle some feathers.
hint: Alice Bailey. Luciferian occultist extraordinaire. She both is the poster child for the New Age movement AND the one who is credited with the Lucius (Lucifer - the Light bearer) Trust, which is the beginnings of the United Nations. What!?! Seems at odds to me.....
^^like... Former vegetarian here. It ruined my hormones. I introduced red meat/fat into my diet (big psychological obstacle to overcome) and after only four months I feel stronger and calmer. The increase in strength is hard to describe as I thought I was so healthy before. It's impossible not to trigger someone "on a mission" to save the world. Now I realize you can't save the world if you can't save yourself. I never could understand a vegan diet or how anyone can survive it. I used to be believe that to gain spiritual heights one had to be vegetarian - I no longer believe this. Keep talking, Doc, your observations are real.
I think, again, you are generalizing, Chuck. Of course, the vegans you see are likely to be unhealthy, because you are a doctor. You are less likely to see healthy people who follow a vegan diet (I avoid visiting a doctor if I possibly can!). By extension (I may be generalizing myself) I would guess that few of the sick vegans are following a healthy organic wholefood diet. I agree totally with regard to vaccination (and indeed all pharmaceutical use) - that was one of the reasons I left clinical veterinary practice. Vets are just as influenced by Pharma as medics are, so turning that situation around would be quite a challenge - but, yes, one that would be incredibly worthwhile. Interested to see you are trained in Chinese medicine - I used to practice acupuncture (on dogs and cats and the occasional rabbit). Now I tend to prefer homeopathy - my patients are less likely to bite me :-)
Thank you for your continuing dialogue. I can say absolutely that even vegans who 'did it the right way' (not junk food vegans) and ate loads of vegetables and what not, became sickly.
Allow me to impart one such case. A female who was 20ish years vegan circa 2017. I saw her for roughly 15 months in clinic. She was a holistic medicine teacher in the bodywork arena. I won't give too many details about her as a person so as to protect her identity. She was vegan starting in the 1990's, so well before it became trendy. as it so happens I ate at her home on numerous occasions, so I can attest to exactly how she prepares her food and what she eats. I got to know her at length, not only in clinic. During the time I saw her in clinic she had 4 or 5 emergency rooms visits. She was constantly searching for answers as to what was leading to all of these symptoms. As i would listen to her story I would note "endocrine system", "nervous system" etc She would share in great detail her emergency room visits, sometimes staying there overnight (on vacations even). Needless to say she was not happy, especially given she views herself to be eating in a very healthy manner, is a holistic bodywork coach, tied to Asian medicine, and more. Her hair is thinning and falling out (she was roughly 50yrs old when I saw her last). I could go on. She had very serious health issues regularly that I was witnessing.
She was never going to get there in my opinion. Broaching the topic of veganism and challenging that was not something she would ever consider.
Interestingly enough, I watched from afar (I would view her facebook feed) as during the pandemic she would virtue signal everyone through facebook about 'doing the right thing' and getting jabbed up, masking, the whole deal. Now, I'm not making the case that is what all vegans do or did. I'm simply saying that sometimes one's entire persona and life's work (how they make money and view themselves) can be so intrinsically tied to idealistic notions, that they cannot possibly grasp what is actually occurring.
Interesting, thanks. Of course, it is impossible to say in such a case what was the root cause (or causes) of her illness. Did you ever find out? I would, however, debate whether she was truly doing the best she could for her health throughout her life, given that she later took the jabs. I would almost say that she seemed obsessed by illness, rather than health. There are many meat/dairy eaters with multiple health problems too, of course (my mother is one). And of course we are all being poisoned in many ways at the moment, however hard we try to avoid it. Dietary choices are just one factor in the health (or ill health) of an individual. I do think it is a shame that the vegan/not vegan debate gets so heated so quickly. Your comments are measured, but I don't really want to engage with some of the others (and luckily I don't have time!). Thanks for the interesting article.
Great point SB! If a Dr. only saw communists does that mean communism leads to ill health? I’m wondering about the scientific method in med schools. Oncologists push chemo and radiation as if the only results are their bank accounts.
Thank you, Chuck. I really appreciate your post and your comments. I've also been resisting vaccines for my pets for the last 25 years. Some vets are okay with that, but many are not. But yes as to nutrition and I really agree with what you say about emotion vs. logos and the effects therein.
“If vegans truly want to have a revolution worldwide, here's how. Tackle the insanity of vaccination as it relates to animals….”Chuck
“Vets are just as influenced by Pharma as medics are” SB
Nice to see a dialogue. Seems many people have forgotten how to disagree amiably.
Despite disagreements on politics, religion, philosophy, environment, health, disease, viruses, food etc. if most knew what was in the shots and drugs given to babies (and animals) and their possible effects they might set aside other differences temporarily and find some common ground.
Can you tell me how I would go about finding a reputable naturopath in Maryland? Search engines are useless anymore -- they don't want people finding them apparently. I would like to see one along with TCM for different things but I don't know where to look.
Right ,search engines can be tricky and you're seeking a practitioner with both DAOM/ND credentials. I think I have a suggestion as how to how you might go about it though. I'm mostly familiar with the West coast Naturpathic schools, which are highly ranked (whatever that means). But, Bastyr (Bothell, WA) and NCNM ( National College of Natural Medicine - Portland, OR) are highly regarded. Both schools offer ND and DAOM programs, and a certain contention of their student body seeks out dual degrees from them. You might consider reaching out to those schools (and perhaps similar schools on the East coast?) and starting your inquiry there. I'm sure they would love to steer an inquisitive soul to their practitioners?
Btw, you or your wife (?) might find the book "Spark in the Machine" by Daniel Keown fascinating. It talks a lot about connective tissue from an embryonic viewpoint and makes some very interesting connections between Western medicine and Chinese medicine.
Agree. Lots of personal anecdotal evidence. I feel we are all being systematically poisoned and gaslit.
1. A city girl, in my youth, I lived on a farm with a herd of cattle, they lived peacefully until one morning I woke up to the most horrendous screaming coming from the cattle. They were having vials of meds put into their bodies.(long time ago, and that was the explanation and although usually curious I didn't want to know more)
2. "Research" says, if you have a "seizure dog" he will get them by age 4 or so. That is usually when the rabies booster is given after the puppy ones. Odd isn't it! I have one dog that became a "seizure" dog at age 4 and all the vet could do was keep upping the meds. After a quiet period I stopped the meds, miracle of miracles...no more seizures. Until he needed meds for pancreatitis, seizures started up. He gets NO MORE allopathic drugs ever, and has been seizure free.
3. I learned the "cold turkey" process from a previous dog who started severe skin allergies around age 4, it took years to diagnose and was only quieted down with chemo drugs. After the allergies quieted down, I tried "cold turkey" treatment after reading (in NYT) about a guy who successfully "cold turkeyed" himself off AIDS drugs. The dog did well after that, but the drug regimen had side effects as he got older.
4. I had a brother who destroyed his health with a strange diet that consisted of dairy and fruit and vegetables.
Yes, nutrition matters and so do other things that go into our bodies willingly or unwillingly.
This vegan-trashing is getting old. I’m 63 & have been vegan for decades. I’m on no meds- never have been. Healthier than 99% of my peers. Did it originally for ethical reasons- spiritual health is important too. I worked for Gary Null’s nurse who counsels patients & saw firsthand people given death sentences heal on a whole whole foods plant-based diet.
Please see my earlier reply to Celia for my definition:
SB
1 hr ago
It is certainly difficult to be a true ethical vegan, but I use the term to distinguish people who are concerned about the welfare of our fellow beings from those who become vegan because of fashion or fad, or for their own health (or because they have been told it will "save the planet").
I am certainly not religious (pseudo or otherwise)! Nor am I sacrificing my health. Just making a choice in how I live my life, as hopefully everyone commenting here has the freedom to do as well. I also do not attack humans - I respect all life and try to do as little harm as possible to everyone.
My definition: ethical veganism is a pseudoreligion, or a substitute of religion.
They pretend to sacrifice part of their health by not eating meat for the greater material good of not contributing with the killing of domestic animals. Those who are also Marxists pretend that any form of exploitation of non-human animals is immoral. But they rarely express any moral qualms about harming humans.
Then they contradict themselves saying that it's actually good for their health. So it's mostly about being "ethical" with themselves, not with anyone else.
In a true religion, people make sacrifices to please their God. For example, if a man likes to drink beer he may choose to try to please God by not drinking beer again.
I don't think stopping an activity that the worshipper hates to do can count as a sacrifice that could please God. And vegans really don't like to eat meat or any food that comes from animals. Not even honey. So it's not a sacrifice for them. That's why it's a pseudoreligion.
The worst ethical vegans like to bully people on the internet. They trick them to watch videos of animals being crushed alive in factories, and then they insult their victims accusing them of having done that.
Is that ethical? No, but they like to pretend they are ethical by assaulting humans. Their diet is so boring that they need to attack humans just to stay awake.
Perhaps there are some of the so called "ethical vegans" that choose to treat humans at least as well as they want to treat animals. And they punish themselves if they mistreat a fellow human being. Those people are probably the only coherent ethical vegans in the world. I have nothing against them.
Some people would argue that punishing your own body for the sake of "ethics" with the result of harming your health is immoral. For example, if a woman does something bad and then punishes herself with cold showers and fasting, and she see causes some damage to her body, then those people would say that's immoral. I doubt that principle is right. It's normal for humans to take risks for the sake of something they value. For instance, every day parents go to very shitty jobs where they lose health because they want money for their family. I don't think they are immoral at all. I would prefer they had a better job. And I lament that there is so much socialism everywhere, making everyone poorer than he should be. This moral/immoral little game is just abject sophistry.
The vegans and vegetarians I have met, have been pretty much depressed women. (sorry, no bullying here, just MY observation). Lonely, unable to find love, and depressed about the fulfilling lives they see on TikTok, vegans will try to express power through their diet.
They often insist they love animals, without realizing most animals in nature eat each other. A tiger doesn't think, "Gee, that kale looks delicious." No. The tiger is much more interested in that cow over there.
I always found it somewhat bizarre that a vegan will abhor meat at all cost, only to give her cat the meat instead. The cat knows more than she does!
I am so tired of people telling everyone how to eat. As though one size fits all FOREVER.
Yes, quality of the food is essential -- which has everything to do with how it's raised and grown. So it's not really a good comparison when Industrial mono-culture agriculture is pitted against local, grass-fed animals.
Here's a quote from my piece, "Freedom from Foodogma:"
"Vegan? Paleo? Keto? Lion? Omnivore? The answer will always be: it depends.
What are you trying to achieve? Are you looking for healing? Is your illness acute or chronic? How old are you? Are you breastfeeding? What kind of work do you do? Do you live in a warm or cold climate? Is it summer or winter? Where are your ancestors from?
Then there’s the food itself: what is the quality of it; where and how was it grown? Factory farmed or biodynamic? Was it processed? Is it canned, frozen, cooked? If it was an animal, what kind of life did it have? What kind of death did it have? I could go on and on..."
Each unique individual needs something different, at different times of the year, to do different activities, and at different stages of life. A vegan diet might serve someone who needs it for healing; ditto carnivore. And the way to figure out what is best for one's own body is to LISTEN TO THE BODY, rather than listen to everyone else, and make adjustments based on what the body is telling you. Haven't we all had enough experts telling us what to think and do?
i think the most important issue is to see what makes you feel good when you eat it- it becomes very clear very quickly, when you reflect on what works for you- I think there are different 'diet's' for different times- fasting, etc--- the thing is not to 'become' something, instead- to be someone
The problem comes when people completely discount a certain way of eating as something that no one should ever do. And it might be reinforced by their own experience in that they "tried it once and felt awful." Well, yes. Maybe you felt awful because it was exactly what you needed at the time, and so you were experiencing some type of detoxification process, and if you had pushed through you could have experienced real healing. But instead you gravitated toward messages telling you how terrible that way of eating is, and believed them, but now you're still stuck with those conditions you could have eradicated, and you define yourself by them.
Yes, Tonya! That's exactly what happened to my brother-in-law. Headed down a more healthful path, felt awful immediately, then bailed forever. Hard to watch.
Trying to decide what to eat has become such a confusing enterprise. Maybe eliminating the true garbage is a good start (fast foods, seed oils, excess sugar). From what I have read, your body makes about 80% of its own cholesterol and that there are about 12 different types. Cholesterol does not cause heart attacks directly and that the path to heart disease is the result of many factors, most of which are not readily known.
Thank you. So glad you are addressing this topic. So many well intentioned are endangering themselves. I went mostly vegetarian in my late twenties (I continued to eat some eggs and fish). At first it was great since it is a good way to detox in some ways. Especially if you didn't have healthy eating habits. After a couple of years I noticed my energy and stamina declining. I was diagnosed with MS much later. Eating meat is critically important to both treat and prevent MS. Looking at the views of native americans and other tribal/aboriginal peoples regarding the interconnections of all life forms helped me accept and respect the omnivore path.
The problem with 'ethical vegan' is that it implies those of us who are not vegan are not ethical. If I shoot a deer, process it myself and eat all the meat, is that ethical? Or am I doomed to be unethical for life?
I’ll relate my family’s experience with a relative who once ate meat, still eats garbage conventional food, and turned to vegan. She has become one of the nastiest people we have ever met. She spews her toxic ideas around and insults all of us who won’t give up pasture raised and very humanely treated animals. She has no idea why she is eating that way except now it’s for the animals. I raise our own chickens for eggs. Fortunately for all of us she has lost her mind and doesn’t come to our family gatherings anymore and it’s actually a blessing. Mind you, none of us ever insulted her for changing to vegetarian then to vegan. We even made foods until she started insulting all of us that she could eat, which already was many. What makes me laugh is that she will make sure all her food looks like a meat product. Why if you are against eating meat! Then she brags about eating the toxic fake meats Beyond Meat etc! I think her brain has become deprived of important nutrients. My brother, her husband, still eats meat and comes to our family gatherings!!! The saddest thing is we are all neighbors! She has not seen my mom who has treated her like family for over 40 years and did the same to my dad who always helped her with her horses and she quit seeing him two years before he died. I have no use for someone who has turned into a real snake! She gets worse by the day!
Joni I have also observed that vegans have different personalities, trying to tread gently here. I am not sure how to talk about how I observe brain changes for the better in all carnivores I see listen to and in myself nor how to talk about the "frequency" I perceive in vegans. It's this accusatory frequency. I just wind up avoiding them because they can be quite wounding.
Thank you, Celia. We all used to be so close and actually good friends beyond just being relatives, but now she is downright hateful. I can honestly say none of us have changed except for her and it’s so drastic. We are the type family that everyone is welcome, and there is always plenty of food. If you have friends you want to come, no problem. We have a lot of standing invites to my son’s good friends, and neighbors who we also relate to as family. Even they have seen these drastic changes in her, but it’s impossible to even communicate with her now. Last summer she sat at our picnic bragging how she has nothing to do with any of the employees at the company she is the controller, nor does she ever speak to them or even address them in any way. This just doesn’t make sense to any of us. We are all very friendly and caring. She truly forgot where she came from and who was always there for her. I completely agree with what you said, “they can be quite wounding.” And it’s intentional not accidental! The saddest thing is for my mom who is now 93. She doesn’t understand when she let them live with them and also at my grandmothers while they were building their new home. She was hospitalized last June and she has never come over to see her or even called to see how she was. It’s all so disturbing. As for me, I want nothing to do with her anymore.
My experience is completely the opposite. All the vegans I know are gentle, patient, and kind. I think making generalizations about certain groups of people is a very slippery slope, as we've all witnessed during the past 4 years.
I don’t know other than the usual ones. It’s not like what they are doing now to children. She is 60 so she wouldn’t have had many. But I do agree she has a mental/psychological problem now. Plus she turned a young gal she was teaching to ride horses against her parents about 7 years ago and now claims her as her daughter. She was even best friends with her mother at one point. She’s now in her early twenties and she is also her vegan pal. It’s all very strange. She also lives with them and acts just like her.
I agree that many having disordered eating to begin with and most are unhealthfully thin and highly undernourished. Not all of them, of course. I was a simple vegetarian for three years in college, ate eggs and dairy. I lost 12 pounds I could not afford to lose. After I reintroduced meat, chicken and more fish again, I regained my weight, health, stopped getting sick as often, etc. Don’t know if blood type has anything to do with it, but supposedly, Type O needs meat. My body agrees with that notion! Vegans can be healthy, but it takes some work, some extra knowledge of nutrition and dedication to getting the nutrients the body needs, by virtue of it being a human body. Thanks for this, Celia.
Lol, Celia. The only way you’re alien is that you are far and above, more brilliant a light than most can project in a lifetime. Cheers, type O!! They like us at the blood bank… especially since we are unvaxxed!
I am Type O Blood Type…it’s the Caveman blood type..we need our meat. I was raised by a Father who was a cowboy and raised pasture cattle (not factory farmed beef). If there ever was a person who understood the nature of his work and what he was providing to society, it was my Dad.
The only vegans I encountered were those who didn't want to harm animals. They watched documentaries of slaughterhouses. So naturally it turned them off to eating meat.
The vegans I met were usually young adults.
I recently learned how kosher meat is made.
Edit: The animals are often stunned before they are killed.
I was convinced by the low-fat,-plant-based Campbell group for five years. I had signs of dementia (mid-40's) and my hair was falling out. I remember thinking 'if only I could take out the last bit of fat.' My 4-year-old became so ill - the stack of referral slips meant trips to 7 different physicians, none of them able to offer any guidance. My pediatrician supported our diet. I was saved by the gentle words of Natasha Campbell-McBride, MD in her book called Gut & Psychology Syndrome. It is a terrible title for one of the best books ever written. Her book Vegetarianism Explained is also excellent. I saw her at a conference -- she was standing in front of me in the registration line. I totally lost it - I broke down, weeping uncontrollably, unable to express my gratitude for saving us from further suffering. I have often tried to figure out why I was able to hear her message. First, I had come across her book on my own - nobody told me to read it, and I didn't realize the advice would mean eating meat. Second, there was a non-threatening tone in her introduction -- and a description about the multi-generational nature of the suffering that really hit me. Her theme wasn't: you're wrong! You're an idiot! It was: Your child desperately needs nutrients that are not available on his current diet! You can do this! We take on these narratives that sound perfectly reasonable -- we really think we are making good decisions. We cannot imagine that we're taking on an engineered, authoritative narrative that is purposefully deceitful and divisive. Personally, I was very stubborn about it for years. Fortunately, I was willing to be wrong (really, really wrong) if it meant my child could recover. It is very hard to talk about, but I see the same thing happening all around me with so many topics. For those who have made it this far into the comment, I will close by telling you that we ate sausages, sauerkraut, chicken, bacon, eggs and vegetables; a few berries and occasional honey; and supplemented with a high quality cod liver oil for 10 months. We didn't cheat a single time. My son didn't have a single disaccharide for 10 months. Everything turned around. That same child continued to be wheat- and sugar-free for 5 additional years. He turned into the healthiest kid I knew. He now eats everything, but he self-selects foods in a very mature way. He has an intuition that I lack.
When I turned 70 it hit me that I need to get serious about my diet choices. I selected Keto to get the 25 excess pounds away, and that worked easily. Now, for the last 5 years I've stayed with Keto and leaned hard into carnivore. I eat tons of eggs, meat, animal fat and nothing with flour etc. I feel healthy as all get out, BUT......and this is the funny part.....my primary Doc blows her mind over my very high cholesterol. Have you ever tried to educate a doctor? It ain't easy. I paid out of pocket to have my own test done to count the very small LDL particles and I was in the good zone. I have had aortic scans, etc, no evidence of heart disease. I refused the Statins (of course!) but had to explain the studies to my Doc. She was annoyed, but accepted the information.
At this point, I believe "working Docs" who see lots of patience, just don't have the time to stay current. My Doc is married with 3 kids and works at a huge University health system. I'm thinking she is 20 years behind the curve right now. Oddly, I like her, and I believe she cares about my health, but I know from a lifetime of chronic disease and legions of doctors (Severe Hemophilia) that "I" am the only advocate I have and I must take all accountability unto myself.
Where to begin? All the stereotypes have been mentioned, among those couched in medical terminology. The one that stands out the most, however, is that one about the cholesterol. It's hard to take seriously someone who does not seem to know that a healthy body is capable of making adequate cholesterol and hormones. I know this for a fact because two vegans I know have been recently tested for both.
In theory (and it's just that - a theory) I should have no sex drive and be losing my hair after 7 years vegan and 30 previous years vegetarian, now at age 60. You could ask my wife if I'm having any problem with sex drive, and while my hair is thinning with age, it's not out of the ordinary.
The doctor sees people with health issues, and I'm sad that people eating to avoid harming animals themselves have lingering health issues not resolving. Most vegans don't have to see doctors much, if at all.
Then there is the repeating myth about how many animals lose habitat when grain is cultivated, supposedly being due to increased demand of vegans. This one is laughable, considering the waste of grain used to pump animals up to weight. The vast majority of the product of these farm fields goes to feeding cattle and pigs. I know there are "junk-food" vegans (they don't last long) but the majority of vegans eat organic and would buy true organic (small operations that do not harm habitat) if the distinction were available.
Vegans are not happy with the United Nations "divide-and-conquer" chess move to turn carnivores against vegans while they destroy all of our food. We certainly do not support mass-murdering chickens by arson or Dept. of Agriculture orders supposed to contain "bird flu." We'd rather they did not get eaten, but also rather they did not go to waste.
There's not enough space to respond to each point, but Vegans are not your enemy, and they are not in any way bolstering the WHO agenda to starve the world. We're maybe going to have an easier time of it because we'll be able to forage, while the guns will be gone along with any animals to hunt them with. Those with toxic animal flesh in their systems simply will not make it.
Contrary to what some of you want to believe, we are loaded with testosterone and will be putting up one hell of a fight when the time comes. Trust me, you not want to contend with an angry vegan.
Of course it is well understood that cholesterol is produced endogenously in the body. I never stated that it wasn't. This is a complete mischaracterization. Though the body does produce cholesterol is does not produce all of the required cholesterol needs of the body. You can find this information basically everywhere in the public domain. So veganism, in that it removes exogenous cholesterol, absolutely leads to deficiencies. I know this because I have seen countless vegans in the clinic setting. Your claim that "Most vegans don't have to see doctors much, if at all." is simply based on nothing. That I can surmise from your whiny post, you don't see any patients in the clinic setting, nor are you a physician of any kind.
if you need hard evidence of the disaster that veganism is on many peoples health, I suggest you turn to Youtube and other similar social media platforms. There are hundreds and hundreds of former vegans detailing their horrific healthy 'journey' due to veganism. This information is everywhere. Look at Dr Shawn Baker; his channel alone if replete with countless stories. Good luck out there.
But let's move on to your being associated with Scientology! In suggesting no one would take me seriously due to my bringing up cholesterol comments. Would anyone take you seriously....? Scientology.
I forget, was L Ron Hubbard a double agent for the intelligence apparatus (British and American) or was it triple, with Russia added into the mix? His association with Jack Parsons (well known occultist) and the massive grift that was (still is) JPL. The completely silly narrative that is Scientology. Or Tom Cruise (mind controlled actor from Hollyweird) being the #2 bozo now at Scientology. The hits just keep on coming.
There's innumerable proofs of who L Ron Hubbard was. This is who you subscribe your ultimate belief system to, the one that will guide you beyond this realm? Fascinating.
Well reveal your true colors why don't you. You have no idea how much of a critic and skeptic I am of L. Ron Hubbard, yet you assume I follow Hubbard Scientology. Even so, add Scientology-bashing to Vegan-bashing. And ad-hominem in place of debating the real issue.
Which is the production of cholesterol, which by the way, you really did leave a false impression in the minds of those reading the article and strongly implied animal fats are essential to producing cholesterol and vital hormones. It's simply not true and has been proven over and over again.
By the way, the only time I have been to a doctor since becoming a vegetarian in 1986 was in 2002 for a protracted flu that was caused mainly by the abuse I was under in Scientology. Want to know who made me go to the doctor for antibiotics I could easily have done without? The Scientology people.
I've no use for doctors like you and probably never will. You see patients who are struggling with toxicity issues which produce deficiencies equally in meat-eaters and vegans. That you are picking on vegans says much about your own ignorance.
Vegans and vegetarians are statistically the healthiest and longest living populations and that is a fact.
Some people have a need to justify their living in fear and stealing energy from animals. They target those they envy for whatever real or imagined injustice that comes as consequences for their moral choices.
I get it. It's called projection. I'm used to it.
You started the ad-hom and use of insane generalities in your fear-and-loathing round-up of the ignorant that needed an "expert" to reassure them that "veganism is a horrible thing." Like Scientology, or like Judaism, or like any other convenient scapegoat in history.
Without talking about animal products, you could compare grain eaters vs. people who cut out grains. I have been through health problems. I'd never see an MD for it, that would be a farce and I might end up in trouble ("Dr. Running out of the room in the middle of the appointment and not coming back. The medical system along with the literature is a house of cards. As evidenced by the fact that they inject people and animals with poison for no reason)
I read recently a statistic that something like 70% of the world’s population are fed from acteages of five acres or less.
My husband’s father’s family were considered quite well off with a five acre homestead in the Ukraine before the Stalin holdormor. The after effects of the holdomor were large communist collective farms that were a failure.
Celia, I really appreciate your insistence on no judgment or bullying based on anyone's dietary choices. Thank you for that. Just FYI, not all vegans fit into the description above. I'm 74 and have been vegan for 16 years with a good head of hair and plenty of energy for hiking, swimming, biking and dancing. My cholesterol levels are consistently somewhat elevated (compared to what is officially "normal") and my primary care doctor has repeatedly urged me to go on statins, which I always decline. I'm certainly not superior to anybody and I respect everyone eating whatever is right for them.
I would never eat the kind of lab-made fake meat that Bill Gates promotes. Much but not all of the fruits and veggies I eat come from local organic farms. I think if we made a conscious effort to switch away from corporate big ag mono crops and factory-farmed animals to small and mid-sized organic farms for a variety of food crops along with free-range and chemical-free livestock, we'd all be better off. With better policies about land use and incentives for engaging in healthy practices for producing both plant and animal foods, I think we could do it. Big Ag, like Big Pharma, is the main obstacle, and needs to be cut down to size. Something to strive for anyway!
IMO, any diet in which you can't maintain all your essential nutrients from eating things that are close to the natural form provided for us by the planet (let's call it unprocessed in a factory, so I am not talking raw or fruitarian or anything like that), is a problematic diet. It's true that vegans are lacking in cholesterol, which as your doctor rightly says are the fundamental building blocks of many essential things in your body from hormones to cell walls and many many other things including physical brain as well as brain function. Another nutrient most vegans are seriously lacking in is B12 - and so many take supplements - but of course, supplements don't look anything like anything in nature, they are factory produced, which is not natural, and most B12 supplements, whether they are vegan or otherwise, are not v bioavailable. Consequently, a lot of vegans suffer from chornic illness. There was a doctor who used to look after Zen Buddhist monks in a monastery in Japan in the mid-20th century - and the head monk told that doc (who felt the rates of autoimmune diseases in the monks was rather high), Zen monks do not eat vegan food for health, they eat vegan food to exalt the soul even at the expense of the body. That is a choice which any adult can make, but I feel people need to understand the choice they are making, what they are getting themselves into - not in the immediate future but over the length of their lifetime -, informed consent as it were.
In terms of ethics of veganism - I want to know exactly how vegans intend to grow their foods without animal husbandry - I used to be a vegetarian and tried v hard to grow all my vegetables in my small allotment using vegetable composts, but it was impossible - my potatoes got blight, plants were unhappy, insect, fungus, disease ridden (which let's face it, as the person responsible for those plants, I was keeping an allotment full of v unhappy plants - I did often wonder if I was not committing inadvertent plant abuse?) - and then I started using horse manure in the garden, and over the years, the soil quality improved and so did the health of the plants I grew in them. I don't agree with monoculture farms, but they all require vast amounts of petro-chemical fertilisers (not to mention petro-chemical insecticides and herbicides) - there is nothing about petrochemical industry or large agribusiness that I find ethical in any way. So I would love to know how a vegan ethical food production would work on a global scale. This is an issue that I wonder about, especially since all small-scale permaculture setups I know of require animal husbandry, as in manure, to keep the soil healthy and productive.
Medical schools teach very little nutrition so kudos to the doctor that has some knowledge. I know vegetarians and vegans that know enough about nutrition to stay healthy and energetic. The normal American diet is slow death , just look around. It’s more than food , it’s also exercise and state of mind. I think it’s best to educate yourself and find what works best for you.
People are free to choose what they eat, but it's not clear to me the relationship between ethics and being a vegan (nor am I sure exactly how vegan is defined.) I'm assuming it has to do with killing animals, but is it how they are killed or that animals are killed at all? For instance, if Nanook lives in Canada and kills fish, seals, and walruses during the winter to feed his family, is he unethical? Or if a family raises and kills a couple pigs to feed their family, are they unethical? I'm just curious- I read these back and forth arguments, but they seem to be more emotional responses than a detailed (or informative) discussion of the specifics of the issue. Thank you, and good health to all.
I also wonder about the well-proven fact that plants have aspects of consciousness that could be deemed "emotions." One can choose to draw a line here or there between what's OK to eat and what's not. But surely that has to remain in the realm of personal choice.
Errr - I'm an ethical vegan (and have been for many years). I am certainly not young! I was once a veterinarian, then an epidemiologist, then a scientific editor specializing in medical texts, so I know quite a lot about physiology (many species), medicine, nutrition and animal welfare (and indeed the WHO...). I have indeed worked in slaughterhouses, and on livestock farms, but that was before I became vegan. Please don't make generalizations.
I think Chuck was describing his experience, not so much generalizing.
As an ethical vegan, I'd love to get your feedback on this situation I am just now aware of—the mass mass death to animals and the environment, from agricultural food production. I don't "have answers" but it seems to me it is no longer possible to be an "ethical vegan."
It is certainly difficult to be a true ethical vegan, but I use the term to distinguish people who are concerned about the welfare of our fellow beings from those who become vegan because of fashion or fad, or for their own health (or because they have been told it will "save the planet"). However, I don't think the difficulty involved is not a reason to do as little harm as possible, both directly and indirectly. If I could do no harm to any individual of any species (including plants) I would gladly do so (can you tell me how to become breatharian...?), but think how many tiny creatures we kill every time we step on the ground! Of course there is always collateral damage in food production (indeed in anything we do!), but I grow my food according to veganic principles, and buy the same where possible (as you say, it's rarely possible, but I don't think that's a reason just to throw in the towel and eat meat and dairy again). There are degrees of harm and degrees of suffering, and most livestock farming practices and the methods of slaughter involved are truly horrendous (believe me, I've been involved in them). The amount of collateral damage in agriculture/horticulture varies with the methods used - of course, industrial petrochemical agriculture does more harm than organic, which does more harm than veganic. As far as I am concerned, we are placed in a world/matrix that is based on evil - that I believe is satanically designed to be so - and I believe that the less we can perpetuate that evil, while placed under the constraints of a physical body that, sadly, has to eat something, the better the future world will be. Just my opinion. Thanks for replying to me.
Your world view - that we are placed in a world/matrix based on evil - is truly sad. No wonder you take your stance on “ethical” veganism. I hope your viewpoint is in the minority because it is a hopeless one. The cycle of life and death of all plants and animals on this planet is both tragic and beautiful. The predators and prey in the animal kingdom are no less heartless than those of us who are omnivores. Human consciousness allows us to be thankful for our food, to make choices regarding what we eat and where we get it. Your take in insect life surprises me; usually insect and other smaller life forms are ignored, so thank you for that. Good luck on becoming a breathitarian.
I'm an M.D. and a DAOM (Doctor of Chinese medicine), btw. In case any of that matters. ;-)
My wife is a DAOM as well. She has taught me a lot about proper eating with respect to TCM. One thing that took me a long time to understand is that we also do need collagen. She often makes bone broth but we both take collagen supplements. I'm still struggling with blood pressure even though I'm taking formulas like Hyper Quell and I have some GB issues for which I have some other herb formulas. But I'm happy to be free from big pharma and healthy enough here at 59 years.
Your 'Xingyi' handle piqued my interest. Are you a Xingyi practitioner?
I've been a longtime practitioner of the arts, mainly Xingyi and Yiquan, though some others too (Bagua). Those two are my favorites. I wish I could find competent teachers for Xinyi, the precursor art for Xingyi, but I'm afraid its likely only in mainland China, from what I understand. At any rate, exciting to see another internal arts practitioner.
Collagen is important; connective tissue carries a lot of importance the more I come to grasp it. The structural integrity it provides (based a lot in collagen) is key to sound energies within the meridians of the body. I've learned quite a lot of my years of practice about scar therapy, and have witnessed huge changes in peoples physiology by simply treating surgery scars etc. I agree with the importance of good homemade bone broths in that regard. Another good tip for keeping collagen boosted is Vitamin C. Vitamin C provides the precursors for collagen in the body. I use both sodium ascorbate and liposomal forms, roughly 12,000mg - 15,000mg per day. There's so many good benefits to Vitamin C - huge cardiovascular benefits, the oxidative benefits, collagen (also a part of the cardiovascular aspect - repairing blood vessels), and several other things as well.
If you are interested in top notch information regarding Vitamin C, you might consider looking up all presentations by Dr. Suzanne Humphries amd Dr. Thomas Levy. You might find them on Odysee/Bitchute/Rumble. They are the one's in the modern era carrying forth all the excellent research from the likes of Linus Pauling, Dr. Klenner et al from many years past. Vitamin C is one of the best guarded secrets in medicine, in my opinion.
I'll post some of those links here for those interested:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/B93c215sFHsa/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/HlVvWy41RMAk/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/sTkS48PWD0lh/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/arfoRq0HbCL5/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/nKdhjl9uMNnf/
Good to see your comment here, thanks!
Hi Chuck, yeah, I've been practicing Xingyi, some baguazhang, and taiji for many years now. I was originally instructed by Mike Patterson (https://www.hsing-i.com/shrfu-bio) many years ago. Mike was taught by grandmaster Hsu Hung Chi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsu_Hung-chi) in Taiwan. But nowadays, I don't train that much and am a member of the North American Tang Shao Tao (https://www.natsta.org/) organization and occasionally train up in Washington DC with their instructors.
That's good information on Vitamin C. I'm certain that I don't take enough. Thanks!
I'm familiar with Mike, he knows his craft. That's great to see. I was a member of NATSTA back in the 90's, how funny. A small world the internal arts community.
More aptly, he should have said I haven't met many colleagues that know anything about communism or even nutrition because doctors of medicine are not educated in that fashion. Look up veganism and notice that most studies site could help from a vegan or vegetarian diet. Perhaps the doctor works for the meat and or dairy industry or he is and he doesn't realize it.
Correct, doctors are not taught about nutrition in medical school. Even Chinese medical school goes only so far. When you are taking 9 classes per quarter, there's an incredible amount of information to assimilate. So for doctors (of any type) who do come to knowledge on nutrition, it is certainly because they sought out that education on their own. In my case, I am an autodidact; learning is my jam. I'm a lifelong learner. That being said, it took me about five individual pushes (over many years) to really get to where I felt like I had good working knowledge on nutrition. So it is hard fought knowledge as there is so much information out there. But some things are simply true -for example, vegetables are simply not broken down well by the human GI tract. This is true for all humans, regardless of blood type or whatever spin we want to place on dietary styles. Plants are made of ceullulose, and that material is not well managed by humans. Thus we have ruminant animals.
as per your accusation or suspicion that I could be some agent of the dairy industry or meat industry - I have on words. Yes, I am here to sway the 30 or so people who will even see this thread and comment. That is how I spend my time and energy here on Earth. You got me!
We shouldn't eat the plants with cellulose, only fruit and lettuce
Insoluble fiber rather
Depending on one's criteria, unless one has relocated in the Arctic Circle (not using any transportation to get there other than hiking) and built a cabin from tools made in the forest (no hardware stores) and eat from the land up there (killing animals? fishing? eating nuts & berries?), it's no longer possible to be ethical period.
I was attempting to share my clinical experience, based on many years of seeing many vegans. Veganism seems to appeal to mostly women, and as a clinician you treat primarily women (say 90%) And in a very liberal city I encountered many of them. Furthermore, if I walk the halls of one of the most 'pretigious' naturpoathic medical schools in North America, the main nutrition paradigm being sold right now, is "plant-based future".
Of course my commentary does not pertain to a veterinarian who would have studied physiology; nor could it aptly describe all people. That is an impossible task which I am not claiming to do.
Perhaps you're familiar with the adage - "How do you start a fight on the internet?"
Step 1: Say something
Step 2: Wait (for comments)
I'm well aware of veterinarian training (I know Vets and many farriers in my area, and have worked as a farrier myself) and that some consider it to be tougher than M.D. training given they must apply themselves to multiples animate beings. Give credit where credit is due. My comments were clearly regarding those who had not sought out information before subscribing with zeal to a method of nourishing themselves.
If vegans truly want to have a revolution worldwide, here's how. Tackle the insanity of vaccination as it relates to animals. They so wish to protect the animals, yes? The spillover effect from the mass awakening of the cruelty being done to small and large animals alike would be a masterful stroke. Would it then possibly lend itself to humans wondering what it has and is doing to them? I see countless horses who are harmed all the time by vaccines; they must be one of the most vaccinated populations of large animals, as they are typically a high ticket luxury item for many.
If you sense an edge of displeasure to some of my experience, I'm fine with that. I own every bit of it. It was much to my own chagrin that I had to learn all of this firsthand, not enjoyable. It is very trying to watch people harm themselves (because they FEEL they represent an apex healthy lifestyle), though that is what free will can look like. What is truly sad about veganism, in my opinion, is not just the damage it does to the Earth, or to the vegans themselves, the endless virtue signalling that convinces others it is sound, but to the children of vegans who have no say in being born to a woman with such deficiencies. It is no joke, and if we want to broach a truly holistic conversation on this topic, something we might consider.
Mind control is a very slick and insidious machine. A dynamic that if explored with real tenacity can lead to incredible growth and knowledge. It is also a lonely path doing that work, and often involves a great deal of shame and derisiveness should one dare to speak out. You cannot imagine how many I have watched suffer for not understanding what they engage with - whether that is false dietary paradigms, other lies within medicine, vaccines etc. May an abundance of health be realized and spread wide for those who do the tough work of seeking it. A tough realm to hone discernment in, to be sure.
I do too. I love it and agree with every word. Chuck, I'm sorry you were accused of something so absurd in my "home."
That's Ok Celia. I've managed to build up thick skin after decades of being a 'seer'; it comes with the territory. And I don't see it as absurd in the end.
I find that honing discernment is synonymous with spirituality. It is one and the same. Since we find ourselves here in this realm where everything is inverted and propaganda and mind control reign, it takes real guts and determination to press on. Given that we are in a spiritual war, where we go beyond this life will rest greatly upon the discernment we are able to develop while here. there are a great many tricks to this realm.
Since you have been touching upon mind control more lately (which I personally see as extremely important to do), start an article or thread on the shared roots of entities like the United Nations and the New Age movement, and watch the fireworks fly on that one too. That will really rustle some feathers.
hint: Alice Bailey. Luciferian occultist extraordinaire. She both is the poster child for the New Age movement AND the one who is credited with the Lucius (Lucifer - the Light bearer) Trust, which is the beginnings of the United Nations. What!?! Seems at odds to me.....
Lucius Trust (history) -
https://www.lucistrust.org/about_us/history
I appreciate your sentiment.
Never met a vegan that understands physiology? I guess I just don't understand what that statement is supposed to be saying.
^^like... Former vegetarian here. It ruined my hormones. I introduced red meat/fat into my diet (big psychological obstacle to overcome) and after only four months I feel stronger and calmer. The increase in strength is hard to describe as I thought I was so healthy before. It's impossible not to trigger someone "on a mission" to save the world. Now I realize you can't save the world if you can't save yourself. I never could understand a vegan diet or how anyone can survive it. I used to be believe that to gain spiritual heights one had to be vegetarian - I no longer believe this. Keep talking, Doc, your observations are real.
I think, again, you are generalizing, Chuck. Of course, the vegans you see are likely to be unhealthy, because you are a doctor. You are less likely to see healthy people who follow a vegan diet (I avoid visiting a doctor if I possibly can!). By extension (I may be generalizing myself) I would guess that few of the sick vegans are following a healthy organic wholefood diet. I agree totally with regard to vaccination (and indeed all pharmaceutical use) - that was one of the reasons I left clinical veterinary practice. Vets are just as influenced by Pharma as medics are, so turning that situation around would be quite a challenge - but, yes, one that would be incredibly worthwhile. Interested to see you are trained in Chinese medicine - I used to practice acupuncture (on dogs and cats and the occasional rabbit). Now I tend to prefer homeopathy - my patients are less likely to bite me :-)
Thank you for your continuing dialogue. I can say absolutely that even vegans who 'did it the right way' (not junk food vegans) and ate loads of vegetables and what not, became sickly.
Allow me to impart one such case. A female who was 20ish years vegan circa 2017. I saw her for roughly 15 months in clinic. She was a holistic medicine teacher in the bodywork arena. I won't give too many details about her as a person so as to protect her identity. She was vegan starting in the 1990's, so well before it became trendy. as it so happens I ate at her home on numerous occasions, so I can attest to exactly how she prepares her food and what she eats. I got to know her at length, not only in clinic. During the time I saw her in clinic she had 4 or 5 emergency rooms visits. She was constantly searching for answers as to what was leading to all of these symptoms. As i would listen to her story I would note "endocrine system", "nervous system" etc She would share in great detail her emergency room visits, sometimes staying there overnight (on vacations even). Needless to say she was not happy, especially given she views herself to be eating in a very healthy manner, is a holistic bodywork coach, tied to Asian medicine, and more. Her hair is thinning and falling out (she was roughly 50yrs old when I saw her last). I could go on. She had very serious health issues regularly that I was witnessing.
She was never going to get there in my opinion. Broaching the topic of veganism and challenging that was not something she would ever consider.
Interestingly enough, I watched from afar (I would view her facebook feed) as during the pandemic she would virtue signal everyone through facebook about 'doing the right thing' and getting jabbed up, masking, the whole deal. Now, I'm not making the case that is what all vegans do or did. I'm simply saying that sometimes one's entire persona and life's work (how they make money and view themselves) can be so intrinsically tied to idealistic notions, that they cannot possibly grasp what is actually occurring.
Interesting, thanks. Of course, it is impossible to say in such a case what was the root cause (or causes) of her illness. Did you ever find out? I would, however, debate whether she was truly doing the best she could for her health throughout her life, given that she later took the jabs. I would almost say that she seemed obsessed by illness, rather than health. There are many meat/dairy eaters with multiple health problems too, of course (my mother is one). And of course we are all being poisoned in many ways at the moment, however hard we try to avoid it. Dietary choices are just one factor in the health (or ill health) of an individual. I do think it is a shame that the vegan/not vegan debate gets so heated so quickly. Your comments are measured, but I don't really want to engage with some of the others (and luckily I don't have time!). Thanks for the interesting article.
Great point SB! If a Dr. only saw communists does that mean communism leads to ill health? I’m wondering about the scientific method in med schools. Oncologists push chemo and radiation as if the only results are their bank accounts.
Thank you, Chuck. I really appreciate your post and your comments. I've also been resisting vaccines for my pets for the last 25 years. Some vets are okay with that, but many are not. But yes as to nutrition and I really agree with what you say about emotion vs. logos and the effects therein.
i love this comment- thank you!!
“If vegans truly want to have a revolution worldwide, here's how. Tackle the insanity of vaccination as it relates to animals….”Chuck
“Vets are just as influenced by Pharma as medics are” SB
Nice to see a dialogue. Seems many people have forgotten how to disagree amiably.
Despite disagreements on politics, religion, philosophy, environment, health, disease, viruses, food etc. if most knew what was in the shots and drugs given to babies (and animals) and their possible effects they might set aside other differences temporarily and find some common ground.
Can you tell me how I would go about finding a reputable naturopath in Maryland? Search engines are useless anymore -- they don't want people finding them apparently. I would like to see one along with TCM for different things but I don't know where to look.
Right ,search engines can be tricky and you're seeking a practitioner with both DAOM/ND credentials. I think I have a suggestion as how to how you might go about it though. I'm mostly familiar with the West coast Naturpathic schools, which are highly ranked (whatever that means). But, Bastyr (Bothell, WA) and NCNM ( National College of Natural Medicine - Portland, OR) are highly regarded. Both schools offer ND and DAOM programs, and a certain contention of their student body seeks out dual degrees from them. You might consider reaching out to those schools (and perhaps similar schools on the East coast?) and starting your inquiry there. I'm sure they would love to steer an inquisitive soul to their practitioners?
Btw, you or your wife (?) might find the book "Spark in the Machine" by Daniel Keown fascinating. It talks a lot about connective tissue from an embryonic viewpoint and makes some very interesting connections between Western medicine and Chinese medicine.
Agree. Lots of personal anecdotal evidence. I feel we are all being systematically poisoned and gaslit.
1. A city girl, in my youth, I lived on a farm with a herd of cattle, they lived peacefully until one morning I woke up to the most horrendous screaming coming from the cattle. They were having vials of meds put into their bodies.(long time ago, and that was the explanation and although usually curious I didn't want to know more)
2. "Research" says, if you have a "seizure dog" he will get them by age 4 or so. That is usually when the rabies booster is given after the puppy ones. Odd isn't it! I have one dog that became a "seizure" dog at age 4 and all the vet could do was keep upping the meds. After a quiet period I stopped the meds, miracle of miracles...no more seizures. Until he needed meds for pancreatitis, seizures started up. He gets NO MORE allopathic drugs ever, and has been seizure free.
3. I learned the "cold turkey" process from a previous dog who started severe skin allergies around age 4, it took years to diagnose and was only quieted down with chemo drugs. After the allergies quieted down, I tried "cold turkey" treatment after reading (in NYT) about a guy who successfully "cold turkeyed" himself off AIDS drugs. The dog did well after that, but the drug regimen had side effects as he got older.
4. I had a brother who destroyed his health with a strange diet that consisted of dairy and fruit and vegetables.
Yes, nutrition matters and so do other things that go into our bodies willingly or unwillingly.
This vegan-trashing is getting old. I’m 63 & have been vegan for decades. I’m on no meds- never have been. Healthier than 99% of my peers. Did it originally for ethical reasons- spiritual health is important too. I worked for Gary Null’s nurse who counsels patients & saw firsthand people given death sentences heal on a whole whole foods plant-based diet.
And what is an “ethical vegan”?
Please see my earlier reply to Celia for my definition:
SB
1 hr ago
It is certainly difficult to be a true ethical vegan, but I use the term to distinguish people who are concerned about the welfare of our fellow beings from those who become vegan because of fashion or fad, or for their own health (or because they have been told it will "save the planet").
I am certainly not religious (pseudo or otherwise)! Nor am I sacrificing my health. Just making a choice in how I live my life, as hopefully everyone commenting here has the freedom to do as well. I also do not attack humans - I respect all life and try to do as little harm as possible to everyone.
My definition: ethical veganism is a pseudoreligion, or a substitute of religion.
They pretend to sacrifice part of their health by not eating meat for the greater material good of not contributing with the killing of domestic animals. Those who are also Marxists pretend that any form of exploitation of non-human animals is immoral. But they rarely express any moral qualms about harming humans.
Then they contradict themselves saying that it's actually good for their health. So it's mostly about being "ethical" with themselves, not with anyone else.
In a true religion, people make sacrifices to please their God. For example, if a man likes to drink beer he may choose to try to please God by not drinking beer again.
I don't think stopping an activity that the worshipper hates to do can count as a sacrifice that could please God. And vegans really don't like to eat meat or any food that comes from animals. Not even honey. So it's not a sacrifice for them. That's why it's a pseudoreligion.
The worst ethical vegans like to bully people on the internet. They trick them to watch videos of animals being crushed alive in factories, and then they insult their victims accusing them of having done that.
Is that ethical? No, but they like to pretend they are ethical by assaulting humans. Their diet is so boring that they need to attack humans just to stay awake.
Perhaps there are some of the so called "ethical vegans" that choose to treat humans at least as well as they want to treat animals. And they punish themselves if they mistreat a fellow human being. Those people are probably the only coherent ethical vegans in the world. I have nothing against them.
Some people would argue that punishing your own body for the sake of "ethics" with the result of harming your health is immoral. For example, if a woman does something bad and then punishes herself with cold showers and fasting, and she see causes some damage to her body, then those people would say that's immoral. I doubt that principle is right. It's normal for humans to take risks for the sake of something they value. For instance, every day parents go to very shitty jobs where they lose health because they want money for their family. I don't think they are immoral at all. I would prefer they had a better job. And I lament that there is so much socialism everywhere, making everyone poorer than he should be. This moral/immoral little game is just abject sophistry.
The vegans and vegetarians I have met, have been pretty much depressed women. (sorry, no bullying here, just MY observation). Lonely, unable to find love, and depressed about the fulfilling lives they see on TikTok, vegans will try to express power through their diet.
They often insist they love animals, without realizing most animals in nature eat each other. A tiger doesn't think, "Gee, that kale looks delicious." No. The tiger is much more interested in that cow over there.
I always found it somewhat bizarre that a vegan will abhor meat at all cost, only to give her cat the meat instead. The cat knows more than she does!
Great name
I am so tired of people telling everyone how to eat. As though one size fits all FOREVER.
Yes, quality of the food is essential -- which has everything to do with how it's raised and grown. So it's not really a good comparison when Industrial mono-culture agriculture is pitted against local, grass-fed animals.
Here's a quote from my piece, "Freedom from Foodogma:"
"Vegan? Paleo? Keto? Lion? Omnivore? The answer will always be: it depends.
What are you trying to achieve? Are you looking for healing? Is your illness acute or chronic? How old are you? Are you breastfeeding? What kind of work do you do? Do you live in a warm or cold climate? Is it summer or winter? Where are your ancestors from?
Then there’s the food itself: what is the quality of it; where and how was it grown? Factory farmed or biodynamic? Was it processed? Is it canned, frozen, cooked? If it was an animal, what kind of life did it have? What kind of death did it have? I could go on and on..."
https://marypoindextermclaughlin.substack.com/p/freedom-from-foodogma-the-food-wars
Each unique individual needs something different, at different times of the year, to do different activities, and at different stages of life. A vegan diet might serve someone who needs it for healing; ditto carnivore. And the way to figure out what is best for one's own body is to LISTEN TO THE BODY, rather than listen to everyone else, and make adjustments based on what the body is telling you. Haven't we all had enough experts telling us what to think and do?
i think the most important issue is to see what makes you feel good when you eat it- it becomes very clear very quickly, when you reflect on what works for you- I think there are different 'diet's' for different times- fasting, etc--- the thing is not to 'become' something, instead- to be someone
The problem comes when people completely discount a certain way of eating as something that no one should ever do. And it might be reinforced by their own experience in that they "tried it once and felt awful." Well, yes. Maybe you felt awful because it was exactly what you needed at the time, and so you were experiencing some type of detoxification process, and if you had pushed through you could have experienced real healing. But instead you gravitated toward messages telling you how terrible that way of eating is, and believed them, but now you're still stuck with those conditions you could have eradicated, and you define yourself by them.
I feel very sad for those people.
Yes, Tonya! That's exactly what happened to my brother-in-law. Headed down a more healthful path, felt awful immediately, then bailed forever. Hard to watch.
Finally a voice of reason. Well said ma'am!!
Trying to decide what to eat has become such a confusing enterprise. Maybe eliminating the true garbage is a good start (fast foods, seed oils, excess sugar). From what I have read, your body makes about 80% of its own cholesterol and that there are about 12 different types. Cholesterol does not cause heart attacks directly and that the path to heart disease is the result of many factors, most of which are not readily known.
Thank you. So glad you are addressing this topic. So many well intentioned are endangering themselves. I went mostly vegetarian in my late twenties (I continued to eat some eggs and fish). At first it was great since it is a good way to detox in some ways. Especially if you didn't have healthy eating habits. After a couple of years I noticed my energy and stamina declining. I was diagnosed with MS much later. Eating meat is critically important to both treat and prevent MS. Looking at the views of native americans and other tribal/aboriginal peoples regarding the interconnections of all life forms helped me accept and respect the omnivore path.
The problem with 'ethical vegan' is that it implies those of us who are not vegan are not ethical. If I shoot a deer, process it myself and eat all the meat, is that ethical? Or am I doomed to be unethical for life?
That sounds very economical, regardless.
I’ll relate my family’s experience with a relative who once ate meat, still eats garbage conventional food, and turned to vegan. She has become one of the nastiest people we have ever met. She spews her toxic ideas around and insults all of us who won’t give up pasture raised and very humanely treated animals. She has no idea why she is eating that way except now it’s for the animals. I raise our own chickens for eggs. Fortunately for all of us she has lost her mind and doesn’t come to our family gatherings anymore and it’s actually a blessing. Mind you, none of us ever insulted her for changing to vegetarian then to vegan. We even made foods until she started insulting all of us that she could eat, which already was many. What makes me laugh is that she will make sure all her food looks like a meat product. Why if you are against eating meat! Then she brags about eating the toxic fake meats Beyond Meat etc! I think her brain has become deprived of important nutrients. My brother, her husband, still eats meat and comes to our family gatherings!!! The saddest thing is we are all neighbors! She has not seen my mom who has treated her like family for over 40 years and did the same to my dad who always helped her with her horses and she quit seeing him two years before he died. I have no use for someone who has turned into a real snake! She gets worse by the day!
Joni I have also observed that vegans have different personalities, trying to tread gently here. I am not sure how to talk about how I observe brain changes for the better in all carnivores I see listen to and in myself nor how to talk about the "frequency" I perceive in vegans. It's this accusatory frequency. I just wind up avoiding them because they can be quite wounding.
Thank you, Celia. We all used to be so close and actually good friends beyond just being relatives, but now she is downright hateful. I can honestly say none of us have changed except for her and it’s so drastic. We are the type family that everyone is welcome, and there is always plenty of food. If you have friends you want to come, no problem. We have a lot of standing invites to my son’s good friends, and neighbors who we also relate to as family. Even they have seen these drastic changes in her, but it’s impossible to even communicate with her now. Last summer she sat at our picnic bragging how she has nothing to do with any of the employees at the company she is the controller, nor does she ever speak to them or even address them in any way. This just doesn’t make sense to any of us. We are all very friendly and caring. She truly forgot where she came from and who was always there for her. I completely agree with what you said, “they can be quite wounding.” And it’s intentional not accidental! The saddest thing is for my mom who is now 93. She doesn’t understand when she let them live with them and also at my grandmothers while they were building their new home. She was hospitalized last June and she has never come over to see her or even called to see how she was. It’s all so disturbing. As for me, I want nothing to do with her anymore.
My experience is completely the opposite. All the vegans I know are gentle, patient, and kind. I think making generalizations about certain groups of people is a very slippery slope, as we've all witnessed during the past 4 years.
Your relative definitely has a mental/psychological problem…was she heavily vaccinated as a child?
I don’t know other than the usual ones. It’s not like what they are doing now to children. She is 60 so she wouldn’t have had many. But I do agree she has a mental/psychological problem now. Plus she turned a young gal she was teaching to ride horses against her parents about 7 years ago and now claims her as her daughter. She was even best friends with her mother at one point. She’s now in her early twenties and she is also her vegan pal. It’s all very strange. She also lives with them and acts just like her.
I agree that many having disordered eating to begin with and most are unhealthfully thin and highly undernourished. Not all of them, of course. I was a simple vegetarian for three years in college, ate eggs and dairy. I lost 12 pounds I could not afford to lose. After I reintroduced meat, chicken and more fish again, I regained my weight, health, stopped getting sick as often, etc. Don’t know if blood type has anything to do with it, but supposedly, Type O needs meat. My body agrees with that notion! Vegans can be healthy, but it takes some work, some extra knowledge of nutrition and dedication to getting the nutrients the body needs, by virtue of it being a human body. Thanks for this, Celia.
I'm type O. I read on twitter somebody's said it means you're part alien? I hope that was nonsense.
Lol, Celia. The only way you’re alien is that you are far and above, more brilliant a light than most can project in a lifetime. Cheers, type O!! They like us at the blood bank… especially since we are unvaxxed!
I've heard that as well in regards to convid actually. Was told it didn't affect them? Did you ever get sick suring the plandemic?
I am Type O Blood Type…it’s the Caveman blood type..we need our meat. I was raised by a Father who was a cowboy and raised pasture cattle (not factory farmed beef). If there ever was a person who understood the nature of his work and what he was providing to society, it was my Dad.
Yes, us Os need some meat! Your Dad sounds like he was a wonderful father.
Interesting article. Makes sense.
The only vegans I encountered were those who didn't want to harm animals. They watched documentaries of slaughterhouses. So naturally it turned them off to eating meat.
The vegans I met were usually young adults.
I recently learned how kosher meat is made.
Edit: The animals are often stunned before they are killed.
What do they use for sedation? Wouldn't that be worse to have a drig in the meat? Or does it not go through thr animal since it's right before death?
It's called Shechita. (I thought they were sedated, but some are stunned.)
Apparently shecita is the most humane method of killing the animal.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/222239/jewish/About-Shechita.htm
Okay, thanks. I'll check it out
I was convinced by the low-fat,-plant-based Campbell group for five years. I had signs of dementia (mid-40's) and my hair was falling out. I remember thinking 'if only I could take out the last bit of fat.' My 4-year-old became so ill - the stack of referral slips meant trips to 7 different physicians, none of them able to offer any guidance. My pediatrician supported our diet. I was saved by the gentle words of Natasha Campbell-McBride, MD in her book called Gut & Psychology Syndrome. It is a terrible title for one of the best books ever written. Her book Vegetarianism Explained is also excellent. I saw her at a conference -- she was standing in front of me in the registration line. I totally lost it - I broke down, weeping uncontrollably, unable to express my gratitude for saving us from further suffering. I have often tried to figure out why I was able to hear her message. First, I had come across her book on my own - nobody told me to read it, and I didn't realize the advice would mean eating meat. Second, there was a non-threatening tone in her introduction -- and a description about the multi-generational nature of the suffering that really hit me. Her theme wasn't: you're wrong! You're an idiot! It was: Your child desperately needs nutrients that are not available on his current diet! You can do this! We take on these narratives that sound perfectly reasonable -- we really think we are making good decisions. We cannot imagine that we're taking on an engineered, authoritative narrative that is purposefully deceitful and divisive. Personally, I was very stubborn about it for years. Fortunately, I was willing to be wrong (really, really wrong) if it meant my child could recover. It is very hard to talk about, but I see the same thing happening all around me with so many topics. For those who have made it this far into the comment, I will close by telling you that we ate sausages, sauerkraut, chicken, bacon, eggs and vegetables; a few berries and occasional honey; and supplemented with a high quality cod liver oil for 10 months. We didn't cheat a single time. My son didn't have a single disaccharide for 10 months. Everything turned around. That same child continued to be wheat- and sugar-free for 5 additional years. He turned into the healthiest kid I knew. He now eats everything, but he self-selects foods in a very mature way. He has an intuition that I lack.
When I turned 70 it hit me that I need to get serious about my diet choices. I selected Keto to get the 25 excess pounds away, and that worked easily. Now, for the last 5 years I've stayed with Keto and leaned hard into carnivore. I eat tons of eggs, meat, animal fat and nothing with flour etc. I feel healthy as all get out, BUT......and this is the funny part.....my primary Doc blows her mind over my very high cholesterol. Have you ever tried to educate a doctor? It ain't easy. I paid out of pocket to have my own test done to count the very small LDL particles and I was in the good zone. I have had aortic scans, etc, no evidence of heart disease. I refused the Statins (of course!) but had to explain the studies to my Doc. She was annoyed, but accepted the information.
At this point, I believe "working Docs" who see lots of patience, just don't have the time to stay current. My Doc is married with 3 kids and works at a huge University health system. I'm thinking she is 20 years behind the curve right now. Oddly, I like her, and I believe she cares about my health, but I know from a lifetime of chronic disease and legions of doctors (Severe Hemophilia) that "I" am the only advocate I have and I must take all accountability unto myself.
Meat---it's what's for dinner!
Best Wishes to All
Where to begin? All the stereotypes have been mentioned, among those couched in medical terminology. The one that stands out the most, however, is that one about the cholesterol. It's hard to take seriously someone who does not seem to know that a healthy body is capable of making adequate cholesterol and hormones. I know this for a fact because two vegans I know have been recently tested for both.
In theory (and it's just that - a theory) I should have no sex drive and be losing my hair after 7 years vegan and 30 previous years vegetarian, now at age 60. You could ask my wife if I'm having any problem with sex drive, and while my hair is thinning with age, it's not out of the ordinary.
The doctor sees people with health issues, and I'm sad that people eating to avoid harming animals themselves have lingering health issues not resolving. Most vegans don't have to see doctors much, if at all.
Then there is the repeating myth about how many animals lose habitat when grain is cultivated, supposedly being due to increased demand of vegans. This one is laughable, considering the waste of grain used to pump animals up to weight. The vast majority of the product of these farm fields goes to feeding cattle and pigs. I know there are "junk-food" vegans (they don't last long) but the majority of vegans eat organic and would buy true organic (small operations that do not harm habitat) if the distinction were available.
Vegans are not happy with the United Nations "divide-and-conquer" chess move to turn carnivores against vegans while they destroy all of our food. We certainly do not support mass-murdering chickens by arson or Dept. of Agriculture orders supposed to contain "bird flu." We'd rather they did not get eaten, but also rather they did not go to waste.
There's not enough space to respond to each point, but Vegans are not your enemy, and they are not in any way bolstering the WHO agenda to starve the world. We're maybe going to have an easier time of it because we'll be able to forage, while the guns will be gone along with any animals to hunt them with. Those with toxic animal flesh in their systems simply will not make it.
Contrary to what some of you want to believe, we are loaded with testosterone and will be putting up one hell of a fight when the time comes. Trust me, you not want to contend with an angry vegan.
Of course it is well understood that cholesterol is produced endogenously in the body. I never stated that it wasn't. This is a complete mischaracterization. Though the body does produce cholesterol is does not produce all of the required cholesterol needs of the body. You can find this information basically everywhere in the public domain. So veganism, in that it removes exogenous cholesterol, absolutely leads to deficiencies. I know this because I have seen countless vegans in the clinic setting. Your claim that "Most vegans don't have to see doctors much, if at all." is simply based on nothing. That I can surmise from your whiny post, you don't see any patients in the clinic setting, nor are you a physician of any kind.
if you need hard evidence of the disaster that veganism is on many peoples health, I suggest you turn to Youtube and other similar social media platforms. There are hundreds and hundreds of former vegans detailing their horrific healthy 'journey' due to veganism. This information is everywhere. Look at Dr Shawn Baker; his channel alone if replete with countless stories. Good luck out there.
But let's move on to your being associated with Scientology! In suggesting no one would take me seriously due to my bringing up cholesterol comments. Would anyone take you seriously....? Scientology.
I forget, was L Ron Hubbard a double agent for the intelligence apparatus (British and American) or was it triple, with Russia added into the mix? His association with Jack Parsons (well known occultist) and the massive grift that was (still is) JPL. The completely silly narrative that is Scientology. Or Tom Cruise (mind controlled actor from Hollyweird) being the #2 bozo now at Scientology. The hits just keep on coming.
There's innumerable proofs of who L Ron Hubbard was. This is who you subscribe your ultimate belief system to, the one that will guide you beyond this realm? Fascinating.
I mean there's just too many links....
http://milesmathis.com/parsons.pdf
https://espionagehistoryarchive.com/2016/02/27/scientology-the-cia/
And that's as much energy as I will give to you, sir. You are just plain silly.
Well reveal your true colors why don't you. You have no idea how much of a critic and skeptic I am of L. Ron Hubbard, yet you assume I follow Hubbard Scientology. Even so, add Scientology-bashing to Vegan-bashing. And ad-hominem in place of debating the real issue.
Which is the production of cholesterol, which by the way, you really did leave a false impression in the minds of those reading the article and strongly implied animal fats are essential to producing cholesterol and vital hormones. It's simply not true and has been proven over and over again.
By the way, the only time I have been to a doctor since becoming a vegetarian in 1986 was in 2002 for a protracted flu that was caused mainly by the abuse I was under in Scientology. Want to know who made me go to the doctor for antibiotics I could easily have done without? The Scientology people.
I've no use for doctors like you and probably never will. You see patients who are struggling with toxicity issues which produce deficiencies equally in meat-eaters and vegans. That you are picking on vegans says much about your own ignorance.
Vegans and vegetarians are statistically the healthiest and longest living populations and that is a fact.
Some people have a need to justify their living in fear and stealing energy from animals. They target those they envy for whatever real or imagined injustice that comes as consequences for their moral choices.
I get it. It's called projection. I'm used to it.
You started the ad-hom and use of insane generalities in your fear-and-loathing round-up of the ignorant that needed an "expert" to reassure them that "veganism is a horrible thing." Like Scientology, or like Judaism, or like any other convenient scapegoat in history.
So don't be surprised at a little push-back.
Without talking about animal products, you could compare grain eaters vs. people who cut out grains. I have been through health problems. I'd never see an MD for it, that would be a farce and I might end up in trouble ("Dr. Running out of the room in the middle of the appointment and not coming back. The medical system along with the literature is a house of cards. As evidenced by the fact that they inject people and animals with poison for no reason)
I read recently a statistic that something like 70% of the world’s population are fed from acteages of five acres or less.
My husband’s father’s family were considered quite well off with a five acre homestead in the Ukraine before the Stalin holdormor. The after effects of the holdomor were large communist collective farms that were a failure.
Celia, I really appreciate your insistence on no judgment or bullying based on anyone's dietary choices. Thank you for that. Just FYI, not all vegans fit into the description above. I'm 74 and have been vegan for 16 years with a good head of hair and plenty of energy for hiking, swimming, biking and dancing. My cholesterol levels are consistently somewhat elevated (compared to what is officially "normal") and my primary care doctor has repeatedly urged me to go on statins, which I always decline. I'm certainly not superior to anybody and I respect everyone eating whatever is right for them.
I would never eat the kind of lab-made fake meat that Bill Gates promotes. Much but not all of the fruits and veggies I eat come from local organic farms. I think if we made a conscious effort to switch away from corporate big ag mono crops and factory-farmed animals to small and mid-sized organic farms for a variety of food crops along with free-range and chemical-free livestock, we'd all be better off. With better policies about land use and incentives for engaging in healthy practices for producing both plant and animal foods, I think we could do it. Big Ag, like Big Pharma, is the main obstacle, and needs to be cut down to size. Something to strive for anyway!
IMO, any diet in which you can't maintain all your essential nutrients from eating things that are close to the natural form provided for us by the planet (let's call it unprocessed in a factory, so I am not talking raw or fruitarian or anything like that), is a problematic diet. It's true that vegans are lacking in cholesterol, which as your doctor rightly says are the fundamental building blocks of many essential things in your body from hormones to cell walls and many many other things including physical brain as well as brain function. Another nutrient most vegans are seriously lacking in is B12 - and so many take supplements - but of course, supplements don't look anything like anything in nature, they are factory produced, which is not natural, and most B12 supplements, whether they are vegan or otherwise, are not v bioavailable. Consequently, a lot of vegans suffer from chornic illness. There was a doctor who used to look after Zen Buddhist monks in a monastery in Japan in the mid-20th century - and the head monk told that doc (who felt the rates of autoimmune diseases in the monks was rather high), Zen monks do not eat vegan food for health, they eat vegan food to exalt the soul even at the expense of the body. That is a choice which any adult can make, but I feel people need to understand the choice they are making, what they are getting themselves into - not in the immediate future but over the length of their lifetime -, informed consent as it were.
In terms of ethics of veganism - I want to know exactly how vegans intend to grow their foods without animal husbandry - I used to be a vegetarian and tried v hard to grow all my vegetables in my small allotment using vegetable composts, but it was impossible - my potatoes got blight, plants were unhappy, insect, fungus, disease ridden (which let's face it, as the person responsible for those plants, I was keeping an allotment full of v unhappy plants - I did often wonder if I was not committing inadvertent plant abuse?) - and then I started using horse manure in the garden, and over the years, the soil quality improved and so did the health of the plants I grew in them. I don't agree with monoculture farms, but they all require vast amounts of petro-chemical fertilisers (not to mention petro-chemical insecticides and herbicides) - there is nothing about petrochemical industry or large agribusiness that I find ethical in any way. So I would love to know how a vegan ethical food production would work on a global scale. This is an issue that I wonder about, especially since all small-scale permaculture setups I know of require animal husbandry, as in manure, to keep the soil healthy and productive.
Medical schools teach very little nutrition so kudos to the doctor that has some knowledge. I know vegetarians and vegans that know enough about nutrition to stay healthy and energetic. The normal American diet is slow death , just look around. It’s more than food , it’s also exercise and state of mind. I think it’s best to educate yourself and find what works best for you.
People are free to choose what they eat, but it's not clear to me the relationship between ethics and being a vegan (nor am I sure exactly how vegan is defined.) I'm assuming it has to do with killing animals, but is it how they are killed or that animals are killed at all? For instance, if Nanook lives in Canada and kills fish, seals, and walruses during the winter to feed his family, is he unethical? Or if a family raises and kills a couple pigs to feed their family, are they unethical? I'm just curious- I read these back and forth arguments, but they seem to be more emotional responses than a detailed (or informative) discussion of the specifics of the issue. Thank you, and good health to all.
I also wonder about the well-proven fact that plants have aspects of consciousness that could be deemed "emotions." One can choose to draw a line here or there between what's OK to eat and what's not. But surely that has to remain in the realm of personal choice.